Government Insurance?
As ministers we have the right to opt out of social security on the grounds that we do not believe in "public insurance." I'm going to write a paper on this issue for practical ministry and I wonder what your thoughts are? What scriptures do you think might be relevant?
posted by Unknown @ 8:03 AM
11 Comments:
hey dudes -
i guess i'm going to go ahead and join this blog, if it's okay with you.
your friend,
-z
This comment has been removed by the author.
I think this is a very important question and I'm glad you are raising it Tyler. I have become pretty opinionated about it since I have been in full-time ministry. I wish that this issue was discussed more in my student days.
You can apply to be exempt from SS not only if you don't "believe in" public insurance, but if you are actually against it. I think that is an important distinction. It's not like someone hands you a document after you graduate or get ordained and asks "In or out?" You actually have to go out of your way to apply to be removed on grounds of religous conviction. You have to be religiously opposed to public insurance of any form. And if so many ministers are against public insurance, why are they getting Heathnet, Blue Cross, State Farm, etc.? Regardless of these being "private" in the sense of not run by the govt., they are still "public" in sense of being outside of our religious organization and available for the general public.
Another nuance in the verbiage on the SS website is that your religious group has to teach that public insurance is wrong. I mention this because the issue is not one of theses private conscience issues, at least according to the government. That is why when you apply you have to indicate your religious group. If our "group" teaches that public insurance is inherent wrong for us, why haven't we ever heard this in a sermon?
I understand that SS looks like it is going under. And believe me, I understand that it would be a nice financial break to not have to pay SS tax every month. But I don't see how I or any of us are religiously oppossed to public insurance. I'm with Thom that the church should be our family and take care of us in this way, but until we are ready to go all the way with this (not take workman's comp., not use welfare, never live in government subsidized apartments, not get public insurance of other kinds), then I don't think we should go half way just for a tax break.
Like I said, I've gotten opinionated about this. If I'm wrong, help me think through this. I would definately encourage everyone to actually read the government verbiage before making a conclusion.
Dan-
McMillan said that once you are out you are out. Unless you switch denominations. Or in our cases one can get back in if they go to another Church (technically every church is its own denomination due to the independent status).
Go to the social security website (www.socialsecurity.gov) and then go to the "Taxes and Security" category on the "Questions about:" search bar. Once it takes you to that section, put "religious" in the search engine and it will be your first hit.
To see the actual forms go to www.irs.gov. The more general form for members of religious groups is 4029. This gives more clarity about what they mean by religous group and conscientious opposition. The more specific form for ministers is form 4361. You can get to each form by putting in the number into their search engine.
Damien said:
I suppose since I was one of those "two" in the classroom I should offer a word though I am resistant to do so. I so much appreciate just reading and hearing your hearts and minds. But, here we go...
As I unpack my own thought process and where I am now, I pray you will all meet me with graciousness. As a recent college graduate faced with this rather immense decision I too was "fuzzy" in my understanding of the "in" or "out" decision. I decided to consult those in ministry of whom I held a high regard and respect. I then made a decision that at the time I felt at peace with, but now feel some remorse. Well, not so much remorse, as much as simply asking, "Was it the right thing to do?" At the time the decision was based on the reality of the minister's income and whether I would be able to provide for my family adequately and was it "right" to give 15% of my income to the government when I believed the church would care for its own (which they have for us many times over!). It is not a practical or pragmatic decision. For one, either choice has its own bag of pragmatic pluses. Two, the wording of the decision does not allow it to be such. It is a question of moral and ethical conviction... and, at the time, the conviction was, "I choose to allow the church to do what it does best... care." That was my decision then (which even now I resist sharing), but now... I still struggle with it. I simply want to honor God in every realm of my life, and I pray the Lord's forgiveness if I have erred in this one. At the time I made the best choice I was equipped to make. And each of you has to do the same.
And to answer someone's question, once you are out, just count on being out for good. The government has in the past provided small windows of opportunities to get back "in." But you can't count on them to do so.
Also, to address the wording of the Form 4361 document, my understanding at the time of the decision was that the opposition was against the acceptance of "Social Security" insurance (and all that it provides) based on ministerial income. Not, all other forms of insurance. This is based on the wording of the document itself which states in a paranthetical note, "Public insurance includes insurance systems established by the Social Security Act." Now, the hermeneutical question is what does "include" mean. Does it mean, "By public insurance we mean Social Security?" Or does it mean, "Social Security is included in the term public insurance along with all other forms of public insurance." At the time I interpreted it as the former.
So many questions, so few answers. For this reason it is truly a personal decision that you and your family and your church and your God has to make. And please, please don't forget the church's role in helping you decide this decision. We have become such a government dependant society that we allow the government to take the place of the church. As a former "bad" elder of mine once said as we were figuring how to help a family in need, "Doesn't the government have welfare programs?" I wonder... have we allowed the government to do what the church is more than adequate in doing when it comes to this specific situation?
Now another question in regards to this issue is that of stewardship. Many of my colleagues have landed on this as the determining issue. What is the wisest choice in regards to the resources entrusted to us? Are not stewardship decisions more than merely pragmatic choices? Are they not also spiritual, ethical and moral decisions?
There are more questions, I am afraid to say, than answers.
Sorry for the rambling. But I pray that my inner-turmoil will be of some benefit to you.
With love,
Damien
Well, I'm glad that I have the opinion of the professor I will be writing the paper for.
Hey, guys! A little input from another OCC employee who is in SS. I absolutely hate paying the 15%+ for Self Employment Tax. Some of you guys would not even be allowed to get out now anyway. I agree with M. Ackerman on this one. For whatever it's worth, though, I'm happy that I don't teach Practical Ministry.
The wording for the exemption has changed. It was rather nebulous back in the 1970s. Now, Form 4361 reads "I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister . . .) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services . . ."
Most of the guys in ministry that I know have opted out have done it for purely economic reasons, rather than for religious principles. Recently the IRS opened a window (I think it was 2 years) for guys from my generation who had opted out to get back into the system. I spoke with some of my colleagues who were out about the possibility of getting in. At least one of them got back in. I think he made the right ethical decision.
Glad you guys are wrestling with it. I hope you make the right decision.
Damien says:
Appreciate your kind words, Dan. Your humility and teachable spirit are a true joy.
Regarding the issue at hand, I hear your concerns regarding the "stewardship" rationale. And if given the choice tomorrow to stay in or opt out... I honestly don't know what I would do. My reasonings offered in my earlier comment were more of a representation of thought processes at the time of the decision. Now... I would be extremely hesitant in opting out. However, in no way is there room for a condemning spirit towards those who do. But, as it stands now... I have to live with the decision made a decade ago.
I'm a little late to this discussion, but here's another thing to consider: the Church's view of "retirement."
For some reason, the gov't says that when I turn 65, the only good I provide to society is collecting shells, playing shuffleboard, and holding up traffic. Of course, SS was put into effect at a time when most of the "workforce" was in agriculture or industry, when physical labor was more of the norm. That's not the case anymore (perhaps why the labor unions are at the leading edge of the fight to "preserve" SS). And that should never be the case with the church. Scripture is full of instances of God using the elderly -- why shouldn't that be the case now?
Now, I don't know about any of my collegues on this board, but I don't plan on "retiring" at 65. I just can't see any the early church leaders doing that. I plan on serving God and His Church until I am physically or mentally unable to do that (whichever comes first -- it's a toss-up at this point).
At the end of the day, I don't want the Church or the gov't funding my "easy life" in Del Boca Vista, FL -- I guess I don't plan on quitting until I'm dead or Christ returns.
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